Episode 25 - bonus
From Maintenance to Multiplication: Rebuilding the Church on Apostolic Foundations
In this power-packed episode of Kingdom Reformation with Glenn Bleakney, Glenn is joined by Dr. Michael Brodeur for a transformative conversation on shifting the Church from a maintenance mindset to a multiplication movement. Drawing from biblical models, historical revivals, and personal experience, they unpack why the early Church exploded in growth and how we can replicate that today—through intentional discipleship, apostolic equipping, and a return to Jesus-centered community.
Discover:
- Why addition is not enough—and why multiplication is the Kingdom mandate
- The power of decentralized leadership and relational networks
- How to create a discipling culture that raises up reproducers, not spectators
- Why fivefold ministry must lead to equipping the saints—not stage-centered performance
- Practical frameworks for mentoring, mobilizing, and multiplying leaders
This is more than a podcast—it’s a prophetic blueprint for the future Church. 🔥
👉 Learn more at KingdomReformation.org
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Transcript
Welcome to the Kingdom Reformation Podcast with Glenn Blakeney.
Speaker A:Here the fire of revival ignites hearts and fuels a supernatural move of God throughout the nations of the earth.
Speaker B:Join us each week for prophetic insights, apostolic teaching, and powerful conversations that will.
Speaker A:Equip you to live fully awakened in your kingdom purpose.
Speaker A:This is more than a podcast, it's a movement.
Speaker B:Learn more about us by visiting kingdomreformation.org now let's dive into today's episode.
Speaker A:That's about it, guys.
Speaker A:So thank you so much.
Speaker A:Hey, we're going to jump in on this topic about maintenance to multiplication.
Speaker A:I'm going to be sharing a little bit and then we've got Dr. Michael Broder, who's going to be taking the baton and just taking us more in a deeper place.
Speaker A:I'm going to give just a bit of an overview of this topic of moving from maintenance to multiplication and really why the early church grew so quickly.
Speaker A:And one of my favorite verses, well, there's two actually, is Acts 16:5, and then also Acts chapter 9, verse 31.
Speaker A:And both of those verses, it specifically states that just the churches grew numerically and spiritually.
Speaker A:They multiplied, they were edified, they increased in number, and they were also built up in the sense.
Speaker A:So there was spiritual growth and there was numerical growth that was taking place concurrently.
Speaker A:Some people seem to think that if you're really spiritual, your church won't grow because, you know, you're committed to just seeing the standard of holiness upheld.
Speaker A:And there's so many people today that just really don't want to live up to Christ's standards.
Speaker A:And then we have others who it's really, sometimes we say facetiously, a mile wide, an inch deep, well, we don't want that type of experience or discipleship in our communities as well.
Speaker A:We want to see it move beyond that.
Speaker A:But let's just look back at the early church for a moment.
Speaker A:So whenever it was that Jesus was crucified, historians have different takes on that, but we know it was roughly around 30 A.D. and we know that in the upper room, 120 people.
Speaker A:But by the early 4th century, at the time of Constantine's conversion, Christians numbered between 5 to 6 million people, comprising roughly 5 to 10% of the Roman Empire's population of around 60 million people.
Speaker A:And the growth was exponential and grassroots.
Speaker A:It wasn't driven by imperial favor at this point or massive events, that type of thing.
Speaker A:Actually, Rodney Stark, in his research on the rise of Christianity, says this that Christianity grew at an Average rate of 40% per decade.
Speaker A:40% per decade.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And the expansion occurred primarily through organic or exclusively really organic, relational, spirit empowered discipleship.
Speaker A:There wasn't professional clergy or institutional programs.
Speaker A:And he actually draws the parallel, Stark does, between the underground church in China today, which is thriving under similar social and spiritual conditions.
Speaker A:Now, some people say, well, the reason why the early church grew was because their community was so strong.
Speaker A:And then others would advocate it was because of signs and wonders and miracles.
Speaker A:And we need that.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:And that's true, but it's not one or the other.
Speaker A:There are several elements that were involved in seeing the church grow so deep in their faith and to expand and move beyond their locations.
Speaker A:And the biblical record of growth.
Speaker A:We start off in Acts chapter 2, verse 41.
Speaker A:You know, after the day of Pentecost, Peter's preaching a fiery message.
Speaker A:3000 respond to that message.
Speaker A:They're baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:And it's a powerful thing.
Speaker A:But it says that the Lord added to the church.
Speaker A:And then as you continue to read throughout the book of Acts, you'll see in Acts 5:14, that multitudes were added to the church.
Speaker A:And it continues.
Speaker A:But then by the time you get to Acts chapter six, we know there's a bit of a problem there.
Speaker A:The apostles are now serving tables.
Speaker A:And as a result of that, they are not able to give themselves fully to the ministry of the word of God in prayer.
Speaker A:It says in that day when the disciples were multiplying.
Speaker A:Now there's a change in language here in two aspects.
Speaker A:First of all, they're not just called believers now, they're identified as disciples.
Speaker A:And now it's not just addition, it's multiplication.
Speaker A:So there's a multiplication that's taking place as well.
Speaker A:And you can read about that in Acts chapter 6, verse 1, as well as Acts 6, verse 7.
Speaker A:Now, as I mentioned already, when you look at Acts chapter nine, it talks about the churches multiplying in that time.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So it wasn't just individuals, wasn't just disciples.
Speaker A:Now we see that the churches are being edified and multiplying in Acts chapter 9, verse 31.
Speaker A:So this implies multiplication of ministries, of leaders and of churches that were expanding beyond the boundaries of where they were at, which was Judea and Samaria at that time and Jerusalem Judea.
Speaker A:And then of course, Samaria was.
Speaker A:Had just happened.
Speaker A:Philip goes there type of thing.
Speaker A:Now what I want to mention about all of this is even the Apostle Paul, if you study his modus operandi and how he advanced the kingdom of God, he shifted into a multiplication model.
Speaker A:He was Actually, in his first missionary journey, himself and Barnabas, we know there was a division that took place.
Speaker A:They parted ways.
Speaker A:And then we see in the second missionary journey, now he's got a larger team, Silas is on that team, Luke is on that team, etc.
Speaker A:And then by the time he ends up in Ephesus, his third missionary journey, he changes his approach.
Speaker A:And I think he was forced to embrace a multiplication methodology by what happened in a particular time in his ministry, which was really in a second missionary journey when he went to Corinth.
Speaker A:Now, isn't it interesting that when we're in crisis and our backs are against the wall, that our creative genius emerges?
Speaker A:And it's like we tap into the wisdom of the Lord and he shows us things.
Speaker A:And what we specifically see is that while Paul was in Corinth for 18 months, he actually stays there and he begins to pour into and raise up others.
Speaker A:And that was not his plan.
Speaker A:He didn't like Corinth.
Speaker A:He didn't necessarily want to stay there.
Speaker A:But Jesus himself, no one less than Jesus himself appears to him and says, hey, Paul, I've got many people in this city.
Speaker A:Don't be afraid.
Speaker A:Keep preaching.
Speaker A:No one's going to harm you.
Speaker A:And when you study, you see that there were many significant leaders in the church that came out of that time of Paul investing 18 months into the disciples in Corinth.
Speaker A:Very strategic and very significant.
Speaker A:So now, third missionary journey, Ephesus, what does he do?
Speaker A:He basically stays put, and he's pouring into and raising up others.
Speaker A:He's multiplying disciples.
Speaker A:He's multiplying leaders, who in turn are multiplying churches and making disciples as well.
Speaker A:They're gathering believers and making disciples as well.
Speaker A:We know that all of Asia Minor at that time heard the Gospel in a relatively short period of time, two years.
Speaker A:And the only explanation is multiplication, because there's no way one single human being could pull that off.
Speaker A:Even Jesus was contained to a body and when he was on the earth.
Speaker A:And so there's no way to do that.
Speaker A:So we're talking about moving from three phases.
Speaker A:Addition, where thousands believe in Jesus on the day of Pentecost, multiplication, disciples making disciples, and expansion, where churches and apostolic leaders, evangelists, others, are being sent out across the Roman Empire.
Speaker A:Now, let's just quickly do some math here.
Speaker A:We know that in the short term, multiplication doesn't necessarily fill up rooms, doesn't fill up buildings.
Speaker A:But long term, it brings transformation.
Speaker A:Radical, deep transformation.
Speaker A:So let's look at it this way.
Speaker A:Let's say that you have one church, right?
Speaker A:And that church wins someone to Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:For the first year, that church, or maybe even one individual in the church begins to pour into that person disciples, them.
Speaker A:And then at the beginning of the second year, the same approach is multiplied.
Speaker A:Okay, so you've got the original disciple maker and the original disciple.
Speaker A:Now both of them are going to make disciples.
Speaker A:So you move from two disciples to four disciples.
Speaker A:Then you move from four to eight.
Speaker A:By the time you get to year 10, you actually have 1,024 disciples.
Speaker A:By the time you get to Year 20, you have 524,288 disciples in three 33 years.
Speaker A:Over 8 billion disciples have been made in 33 years.
Speaker A:And this is simply following that pattern of one disciple making another disciple the end of a year, replicating that.
Speaker A:Now that's ideal.
Speaker A:I get it.
Speaker A:It's not necessarily realistic.
Speaker A:But there's power in multiplication.
Speaker A:This point I'm trying to make today is there's power in multiplication.
Speaker A:So rather than just looking to fill up buildings, attract people.
Speaker A:That's kind of the conventional model in many places today.
Speaker A:What if we focus on multiplication?
Speaker A:There's just over 8 million people in the world, and in 34 years, we can reach the entire world's population, ideally.
Speaker A:So this is a New Testament strategy for multiplication, where we shift from addition into multiplication.
Speaker A:So every person becomes a believer.
Speaker A:They hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:But then we recognize that there's really no.
Speaker A:This whole dichotomy that we've created in modern times between a disciple and a believer does not exist in the New Testament.
Speaker A:Jesus said, and remember in John 8, to those who believed in him, he said, if you continue in My word, if you abide in My Word, you're my disciples, and you'll know the truth.
Speaker A:And the truth will set you free.
Speaker A:The truth will make you free.
Speaker A:To those who believed in him, he said that.
Speaker A:I believe it's John 8, verse 30.
Speaker A:So there's a call to move into discipleship for every person.
Speaker A:Discipleship is a great topic.
Speaker A:We'll look at that in greater depth at another time.
Speaker A:And then every disciple becomes a disciple maker.
Speaker A:And then some disciples become multipliers, some disciples become multipliers.
Speaker A:Like Second Timothy 2.
Speaker A:Two entrusted, faithful men who will be able to teach others.
Speaker A:Four generations there, four generations.
Speaker A:You've got Paul, Timothy, faithful men and others.
Speaker A:So it's four generations deep.
Speaker A:And this is the way of the Kingdom.
Speaker A:And we'll be sending out some resources.
Speaker A:If you're part of the Kingdom Reformation community, we Just had a great interview with friend of mine, Peyton Jones that was all about an interview with a man who studied movements that are making disciples.
Speaker A:And what were the primary characteristics of disciple makers of those who have great movements.
Speaker A:And actually they had to have four generations of disciples and 100 churches.
Speaker A:And he broke it down and he said that the first thing is this, that deep bold intercession number one.
Speaker A:There had to be a place.
Speaker A:John Wesley said, hey, when I pray this coincidences happen.
Speaker A:You know, God actually does miracles and things happen when I just pray and I ask God.
Speaker A:Standing for the truth, advocating the truth, not compromising.
Speaker A:So we'll send that podcast out.
Speaker A:If you're on the Kingdom Reformation community, you'll receive the email.
Speaker A:If not just head over to Kingdom Reformation and you can join and be part of that as well.
Speaker A:So every disciple a disciple maker and then some actually will shift into the place of seeing the Kingdom of God advance powerfully, multi generationally as well as as Paul spoke to to Timothy about that now.
Speaker A:Thank you guys.
Speaker A:I'm going to turn over to Dr. Michael, he's going to share and then what we're going to do is we're going to have a Q and A time.
Speaker A:But I just want to give a quick overview of something the Lord has put in our heart.
Speaker A:There was a book that was written by Michael Frost and Alan Hirsch and that book used an analogy and it's quite unique to the Australian outback.
Speaker A:And the idea is this, in the cattle grazers, we might call them ranchers in North America and other parts of the world in the outback, they said they didn't have fences, right?
Speaker A:And so someone's noted that and said, so what about you guys don't have fences?
Speaker A:These cattle just wander off and you'll never see them again?
Speaker A:They said no, we have a solution to them.
Speaker A:And the solution is this.
Speaker A:It's a well, we've dug a well.
Speaker A:It's a dry, arid community and there's a well.
Speaker A:And they'll always come back because of the well.
Speaker A:And I believe that we're in a time where God is doing something new, that he wants us to dig wells.
Speaker A:And the wells are really significant in the sense that they represent Jesus himself first and foremost.
Speaker A:What a novel concept to make Jesus lord of his church again, to have Christ centric ministry in churches and to make it all about him.
Speaker A:And that we all understand that we're under rowers, that we are servants of Jesus Christ and that we serve and empower the next generation as well as so this metaphor is powerful and I believe it really works well for an apostolic framework of renewal and what God wants to do today as well.
Speaker A:And so we see the book is actually called the Shaping of Things to Come.
Speaker A:And there's what is known as bounded sets versus centered sets.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:And bounded sets define the community through rigid boundaries, okay?
Speaker A:And then doctrinal statements, behavioral norms, you know, rigid culture, denominational affiliation, branding, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:Inclusion is determined by conformity to the criteria.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:Secondly, we're talking about centered sets.
Speaker A:Centered sets, by contrast, define the community by movement toward a central point.
Speaker A:And in this case, the central point point is actually a person.
Speaker A:It's Jesus that we literally do everything around him.
Speaker A:He's the centerpiece of that.
Speaker A:So the key question is not are you in?
Speaker A:But are you moving toward the center?
Speaker A:And what does that look like?
Speaker A:It's really a reconfiguration of the church according to the pattern of Jesus Christ, him being the foundation and what he advocated and of course what Paul continued to do that.
Speaker A:So it's decentralized in many aspects.
Speaker A:There's no headquarters or brand.
Speaker A:There wasn't in the New Testament, there wasn't in the days of the Apostle Paul.
Speaker A:It's relationally tethered.
Speaker A:Leaders move in and out of communities not to control them, but to strengthen them.
Speaker A:It's covenantal partnership based on shared mission and mutual trust.
Speaker A:And lastly, multiplication leaders raised up others.
Speaker A:Planet churches empowered indigenous movements without assimilating them into a centralized structure.
Speaker A:Again, there's a lot more we can say about this.
Speaker A:I'll put it in an email.
Speaker A:But what we are advocating for in this day is not that we abandon our current ministries, our current denominational alignment, but that there's more, that God wants more.
Speaker A:And this is actually something that we do relationally now.
Speaker A:It's not like, hey, you need to move from your organization to this organization, etc, etc, you know, if God's placed you somewhere and that's working for you, that's fine.
Speaker A:If you're non denominational, you have your own ministry, maybe your network, you have a network as well.
Speaker A:And I know there are those who are on the zoom meeting right now.
Speaker A:That's the case.
Speaker A:Then that's great.
Speaker A:We want to celebrate you, we want to honor you.
Speaker A:And I mean we.
Speaker A:I'm talking about the Body of Christ as leaders, we should be doing that.
Speaker A:So it's all about how do we lean in, learn from one another, value one another and collaborate together.
Speaker A:And specifically in this time of reformation, when God is resetting and Reconfiguring the church, taking us back to apostolic moorings, prophetic foundations, all of this, that we're in a place where God is wanting us to come together, to collaborate together.
Speaker A:And it's not to impinge, it's not to control, but it's to celebrate.
Speaker A:So keep that in mind.
Speaker A:This is what the Kingdom Reformation community is about.
Speaker A:We obviously lead a ministry network ourselves.
Speaker A:We're planting an apostolic kind of fivefold hub up here in the Sunshine coast in Queensland.
Speaker A:Right now, it's not about that, it's about how do we broaden this and remove the fences on the control and dig the wells, the resources, the relationships, the community that is so healthy and empowering and all of those type of aspects.
Speaker A:So keep that in mind.
Speaker A:Watch for an email if you'd like to know more.
Speaker A:We're not asking you to join an organization or to sign on the dotted line, far from it.
Speaker A:I have no desire to do anything like that.
Speaker A:We're looking to build authentic relationships that are spirit led and organically relationally connected.
Speaker A:So I'll stop right there and I'm going to turn it over to Michael.
Speaker A:Let's welcome Michael.
Speaker A:Bless you.
Speaker A:Sorry, Michael, you're muted.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Total rookie move, you guys.
Speaker B:So sorry.
Speaker B:I spend most of my life on Zoom, so for me to come on muted is like a sacrilege.
Speaker B:But anyway, it's so great to be with you, Glenn, and with all of you as well.
Speaker B:It's such an honor to be speaking with you about this incredible important subject.
Speaker B:Let me just give you a bit of my history.
Speaker B: y home city, San Francisco in: Speaker B:This ministry was one of the early apostolic ministries out of the Jesus movement.
Speaker B:Within about a 10 year period, they planted 65 churches around the world with basically saved hippies.
Speaker B:It was just a wonderful season.
Speaker B:God was moving tremendously.
Speaker B:My wife and I met at that time.
Speaker B:We were doing an outreach ministry and she came up from a youth with a mission.
Speaker B:We fell in love, got married, we now have seven children, we have eight grandchildren.
Speaker B: In: Speaker B:Shortly after that, I was doing an outreach in Santa Cruz and met a guy named John Wimber.
Speaker B:He was traveling with Lonnie Frisbee and we ended up connecting.
Speaker B:Gosh, over a period of probably the next four months, the Lord spoke to us that we were to plant a Vineyard Church in San Francisco.
Speaker B:And so I started working with John Wimber.
Speaker B:I was working with him for about 15 years.
Speaker B: He passed away in: Speaker B:I was not only a pastor of a thriving church, but also part of his oversight from most of Northern California, about 35 churches.
Speaker B:And it was just an amazing tutelage.
Speaker B:I mean, I just learned so much from Wimber.
Speaker B:In fact, some of the things that Glenn just quoted from Alan Hirsch were actually originally from Wimber in 84 and then they were published again by others.
Speaker B:But you know, Wimber was actually, before he started the Vineyard movement, he was the president of the Fuller Institute of Church Growth.
Speaker B:And so he worked with Donald McGaveran, who literally just died today.
Speaker B:He worked with Peter Wagner, who had passed away a few years back.
Speaker B:And you know, Wimber was leading that movement for a long time.
Speaker B:Most of the research that came into church leadership, church growth, much of the seeker sensitive movement, all sprung out of that time.
Speaker B:He actually began the Vineyard movement initially towards the end of the 70s.
Speaker B: move powerfully in the early: Speaker B:82.
Speaker B:And that's when Chuck Smith from Calvary Chapel asked Wimber to reaffiliate.
Speaker B:And the rest is history.
Speaker B:So the Vineyard Movement sprung out of that.
Speaker B: with the vineyard till about: Speaker B:And in fact we were one of the early Toronto ministries on the West Coast.
Speaker B: y had a meeting hall of about: Speaker B:So, you know, any given night there was a tremendous revival experience and people are getting touched by the power of God, getting healed and set free.
Speaker B:Anyway, it's just been a rich history.
Speaker B:We were 33 years in pastoral ministry in San Francisco and then the Lord moved us on and we started coaching churches and started other kinds of ministry expressions.
Speaker B:So now I'm based.
Speaker B:I was based at Bethel for a season, working with their school of ministry, teaching on church leadership, and then eventually moved over to work with my long term friend Banning Liebshire.
Speaker B:And what God is doing through Jesus Culture Ministries just a short way.
Speaker B:But here's my passion about multiplication is that I believe that we are on the verge of what could be one of the greatest harvests in all of human history.
Speaker B:You know, many people have prophesied that there would be upwards of a billion souls.
Speaker B:I think That's a small number.
Speaker B:We have that prophecy going back to the early Azusa street period.
Speaker B:Throughout the healing revivals, there was prophecies about an end times harvest.
Speaker B:And then we transition into Bill Bright, who was not a charismatic, but he ended up fasting and praying a lot, had a vision of a billion soul harvest.
Speaker B:There were others in more recent years that have echoed that harvest, including Lauren Cunningham from ywam.
Speaker B:We've seen incredible prophetic unction.
Speaker B:But if you think about it, what is a billion souls?
Speaker B:How does that work?
Speaker B:How do we multiply up to that level?
Speaker B:See, I believe that, you know, everybody gets excited about thinking about an end time harvest or a billion soul harvest, but nobody's doing the math.
Speaker B:If we're going to pastor a billion Souls at a one per hundred ratio, we need 10 million new leaders.
Speaker B:Well, we need to be able to multiply.
Speaker B:We need to multiply salvations.
Speaker B:We need to turn those salvations into a multiplication of disciples, turn those disciples into a multiplication of ministers, and then ultimately we need to multiply ministries as well.
Speaker B:In order for us to pastor a billion new souls on the earth, we need a massive harvest of leaders.
Speaker B:And that doesn't happen by accident.
Speaker B:It happens on purpose.
Speaker B:And this is why the urgency to think differently, to do ministry differently, to build differently, is upon us.
Speaker B:We must shift from a maintenance mentality to a multiplicational mentality if we ever hope to be prepared for the harvest that God's about to bring on the earth.
Speaker B:And so this is really my passion.
Speaker B:This is something I spend a lot of time thinking about.
Speaker B:If you want to know more about my passion for that particular issue, I'm going to just put it in the chat room right now.
Speaker B:There's a book that I've produced with Banning Liebscher and Bill Johnson about 10 years ago that talks about revival culture, how to prepare for this harvest that God's bringing.
Speaker B:But I believe that we cannot actually prepare effectively until we start to really move away from the current church culture of the Western world.
Speaker B:Now, let me explain what I mean by that.
Speaker B:I personally believe that the church flies with two wings.
Speaker B:As Ralph Nabor said, we have the large meeting and the small meeting.
Speaker B:If you look at Acts chapter two, they continued daily in the temple and meeting from house to house.
Speaker B:There was two dimensions of the meeting dynamic, okay?
Speaker B:And we all accept that.
Speaker B:We actually find that when Paul was meeting in Acts chapter 20 with the Ephesian elders who met him on the beaches of Miletus, that he actually said to them, I never withheld anything from you meeting with you public, and from house to house.
Speaker B:So we have this model that was throughout the book of Acts, that continued through the early church.
Speaker B:But unfortunately, over the next thousand years or so, the church began to be centered on large meetings alone, and discipleship pretty much stopped.
Speaker B: Protestant reformation in the: Speaker B:There was this emphasis on large meetings, not necessarily, you know, mega churches, but two or three hundred people in a meeting room without the benefit of small groups that were doing discipleship and multiplying disciples and leaders on a small group level.
Speaker B:Martin Luther had a revelation about the priesthood of every believer, and it got entered into the 95 theses that he nailed to the Wittenberg door, that he ended up saying, no, we need to return to raising up the priesthood of every member.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, the truth was rediscovered, but the model of church never changed.
Speaker B:And so what we have coming out of the the Protestant reformation was 10 people doing all the ministry, and everybody else came and watched.
Speaker B:So what we have over the last 500 years is a consumer based church where people are relegated to spectators and to be basically consumers, consumers of Christianity and not activated into the fullness of who they're called to be.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And so right now, what we have in the Western church is we have a stage centered expression.
Speaker B:Okay, we're still 10 people, 15 people do all the ministry.
Speaker B:And the majority of people are relegated to a spectator position, except they can hand out a bulletin or they can actually, you know, lead in children's training church, or they might even lead a home group, but they're not being activated at a high level.
Speaker B:And so the model that we have inherited is a maintenance model, where so much of what's going on in the church today is just maintaining the status quo.
Speaker B:In fact, there was a study done about 14 years ago, 15 years ago, where a doctoral student looked at every single county in the United States.
Speaker B:There was not a single single county that experienced conversion church growth at a rate that exceeded population growth.
Speaker B:In other words, churches are growing, but most churches are growing from transfer growth and not from producing or multiplying new disciples, new believers.
Speaker B:And then with those new believers, we're not bringing them into discipleship, we're not bringing those disciples into leadership.
Speaker B:And then ultimately we.
Speaker B:Or falling short of the mandate of heaven.
Speaker B:So what is the multiplication mandate?
Speaker B:Well, first of all, it's woven into all of creation that the multiplication mandate is that all living things will multiply.
Speaker B:There's five characteristics of anything that's alive is that first of all it consumes energy, it disposes of waste, it actually grows in size and it interacts with the environment around us and it multiplies.
Speaker B:So living things interact in those five ways.
Speaker B:But one of the key ways is multiplication.
Speaker B:And then when we look at Genesis chapter one, the first words that God spoke to Adam and Eve is, he said to them, be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, subdue it, and have dominion.
Speaker B:Those five directives were given at the very original Genesis mandate.
Speaker B:And those five things are in a sense echoed and repeated in the Great Commission.
Speaker B:You know, after Jesus came and established his kingdom expression on the earth, he gave his life for our sins, he removed the power of the enemy, and then he established the resurrection and the authoring of the Great Commission.
Speaker B:He said to them, I want you to go in my authority and make disciples who make disciples.
Speaker B:So the idea is, is that there would be this incredible commission to multiply the kingdom impact the kingdom liberation, the kingdom disciple making dynamics to every single person on the earth.
Speaker B:Jesus came to seek and save that was lost.
Speaker B:He came to establish his kingdom on the earth, to restore that was lost through the fall, and to actually bring about a restoration of all things.
Speaker B:And that requires ultimately a group of men and women who are so empowered, so equipped, and so greatly used of God that ultimately the earth is filled with the knowledge of the glory of God as the waters cover the sea.
Speaker B:So this is really the discipleship mandate.
Speaker B:But we've inherited a church of maintenance.
Speaker B:And one of the challenges there is that the church is primarily built upon a wrong foundation.
Speaker B:It's built on the foundation of pastors and teachers.
Speaker B:But if you go back to the original church that was birthed in the New Testament, the church according to Ephesians 2:20, was to be built on a foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone is called to build the house of God and equip God's people to actually bring God's kingdom to the earth.
Speaker B:The prophetic is an expression of listening to the voice of God, being filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in the presence and power of God.
Speaker B:So the partnership between the apostolic and prophetic was always meant to be foundational to the church.
Speaker B:But unfortunately, over the years we've drifted into that spectator, consumer pastoral based church dynamic.
Speaker B:Meet my needs, take care of me, feed me became the actual ethic of the local church.
Speaker B:And so I really believe that we have to rethink the way we do church if we want to move from maintenance to multiplication.
Speaker B:Now, Glenn shared this Amazing stuff.
Speaker B:Set of scriptures that you look at.
Speaker B:You know, Luke, chapter nine, you see Jesus choosing the 12.
Speaker B:And then in the middle of chapter nine, out of the 12, he chooses three.
Speaker B:And then in chapter 10, he chooses 70 others.
Speaker B:So we see Jesus building his worker base with a very clear strategy.
Speaker B:And I call the strategy Concentricity.
Speaker B:We have the three, we have the nine of the 12, we have the 70, we have 120 on the day of Pentecost, we have 500 that saw Jesus in a resurrected form according to First Corinthians, chapter 15.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So Jesus built his team concentrically.
Speaker B:And at each level, there was a mobilizational mandate.
Speaker B:There was a movement to actually bring these men and women into a level of multiplication.
Speaker B:And that's how Jesus built his team.
Speaker B:We see the same thing echoed in the ministry of Paul as Glenn quoted in second Timothy, chapter two.
Speaker B:And if you look at the entire statement, he calls Timothy his son in the Lord.
Speaker B:And then he says, timothy, I want you to take what I've shared with you and to share it with faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And then he talks about three different analogies.
Speaker B:He talks about the score soldier, he talks about the athlete, and then he talks about the farmer.
Speaker B:And each one of those models is a key to the mobilizational multiplicational dynamic that Jesus wants us to step into.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And so all of these aspects of the kingdom are noted, and they're all part of how the original church took the ground that Glenn had talked about, where they moved initially from addition.
Speaker B:The Lord added to the the church daily, such as were being saved, and then they moved to multiplication, that the disciples were multiplied, and then the ministries were multiplied, the churches were multiplied.
Speaker B:So we see the multiplication of ministers and ministries as the outcome of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the early church.
Speaker B:So let me just get practical for a minute.
Speaker B:We want to go into some actual Q and A.
Speaker B:So if you're thinking of any questions, please, please write them down.
Speaker B:But I learned the principle of multiplication from John Wimber and the church that we established in San Francisco.
Speaker B:Although the majority of our growth, I would say probably 70% of our growth was not through conversion.
Speaker B:It was through the multiplication that comes through transfer growth.
Speaker B:There were many, many churches that weren't functioning very well.
Speaker B:They weren't mobilizing their people very effectively.
Speaker B:They weren't walking in the Holy Spirit very dynamically.
Speaker B:And when God began to move in our midst through the signs and wonders and through the multiplicational principles that Wimber had taught us, we just became an incredible gravitational center, like a critical mass.
Speaker B:And so we actually clocked growth at about a net 60% a year.
Speaker B: le and ended up with close to: Speaker B:This growth was pretty dramatic, but it required us mobilizing people at a much higher rate.
Speaker B:It required us taking risks.
Speaker B:It required us being able to backfill the discipleship that was necessary as we began raising up people.
Speaker B:And in order to do that, we had to create a culture of development where we were constantly talking about how do we develop people?
Speaker B:How do we build the ship at sea, as they say, or build the airplane while it's flying through the air.
Speaker B:How do we actually build disciples while they were serving?
Speaker B:That's really what Jesus did.
Speaker B:I mean, if you look at the 12, they were not very well developed people.
Speaker B:Even the very night that Jesus was betrayed, they were fighting about who was the best.
Speaker B:And so we have to understand that Jesus was willing to work with people in process, but he constantly was with them, training them, empowering them, teaching them, correcting them, and leading them forward into greater and greater maturity as he went.
Speaker B:So how do we do this?
Speaker B:Well, I have three points that I wanted to bring up, and we're limited in time, so I'm just going to touch these very quickly.
Speaker B:The first is mentoring, the second is mobilizing, and then the third is multiplying.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:That we have to create a culture of mentorship.
Speaker B:We have to have from the very earliest stages of somebody's life, a mentoring culture where they are receiving input, where they're learning to receive from those who are further down the road, where they have enough humility, enough openness to both be instructed and corrected.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Because qualification is essential to, to the multiplication process.
Speaker B:We need to qualify people.
Speaker B:One of the saddest aspects of the current body of Christ is that there are people who are walking in high level charisma, who are walking in, preaching at conferences and building mega churches, who don't have the character to match the calling that they have on their life because they did not take the time to go through the mentoring process.
Speaker B:And so we have many leaders who are being accused not just of sexual misconduct, but they're being accused of spiritual abuse and misuse of prophecy and things like this that should never be named among men and women of God.
Speaker B:But unfortunately, because we have failed to create a culture of development and maintain high qualitative standards for, for those that were multiplying, we actually failed.
Speaker B:We went after the Multiplication without the character, dynamic without the mentorship.
Speaker B:And so we're looking to equip people, but we need to equip them in three areas.
Speaker B:Head, which is knowledge, Heart, which is character, and hands, which is skill.
Speaker B:Now, we're doing hands pretty well.
Speaker B:We don't necessarily do the other two very well.
Speaker B:There's a lot of people preaching heresy because they were never trained in knowledge.
Speaker B:There's a lot of people misbehaving because they were never trained in character.
Speaker B:We need to resurrect those three areas of development if we want to produce true multiplication.
Speaker B:All right?
Speaker B:And so multiplication begins with qualification.
Speaker B:You cannot put people in positions of authority without equal responsibility and without accountability.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And so these three things need to come together, and that happens through three different delivery systems.
Speaker B:One is the large group, one is the small group, and one is the one on one.
Speaker B:We do large group ministry fairly well, but we don't do small group effectively, nor do we do one on one effectively.
Speaker B:And so we need to bolster those areas of our development as leaders if we want to produce a culture of multiplication.
Speaker B:All right, let's move to mobilizing again.
Speaker B:Once you've mentored people in the process of that mentorship, you want to actually get them moving.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That's what the word mobilize means.
Speaker B:You get them moving.
Speaker B:And what we're talking about is moving into greater and greater levels of development.
Speaker B:So as they move into greater levels of development, that's noted by the fact that they're taking on higher levels of responsibility and coming under greater and greater accountability.
Speaker B:So we have qualification, we have responsibility, we have accountability, we have authority, and we have privilege.
Speaker B:Those five dimensions actually work together.
Speaker B:And I have a whole book on this that I'd like to recommend to you.
Speaker B:All of this material is spoken about in great detail in that place.
Speaker B:Mobilizing people is.
Speaker B:We move from equipping to empowering.
Speaker B:We want to actually get people out there.
Speaker B:We want to get them moving, want to get them leading others in actual increasing levels of responsibility.
Speaker B:So each member must be mobilized, first of all, according to their gifts and their calling.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So I want to know, is somebody more apostolic?
Speaker B:Are they more prophetic?
Speaker B:Are they more pastoral, Are they more evangelistic?
Speaker B:I want to know how God has wired them.
Speaker B:I want to know what makes them tick.
Speaker B:I want to know the prophetic words over their life.
Speaker B:I want to know a lot about their childhood and about their developmental process, how they came to Christ.
Speaker B:I want to know these things so that I can help them discover their starting point and then to begin to move towards their developmental goals.
Speaker B:I want to be able to move them through step by step to become the leader that God's called them to be.
Speaker B:And that requires a knowledge of how they are gifted, how they are designed by God and what their destiny is.
Speaker B:So I'm working with that.
Speaker B:Then the next thing is I want to move to a place of mapping their journey with them into increasing responsibilities that are ultimately aimed towards their God given destiny.
Speaker B:Everybody's called to do something different.
Speaker B:Some are called the marketplace.
Speaker B:Some are called to mission work, some are called to planning churches, some are called to worship, leading intercessory work.
Speaker B:There's a myriad of things that people are called to.
Speaker B:I want to know what their passion is, I want to know what their dream is so I can help them to build a map of development to achieve what that outcome is.
Speaker B:And so that's part of the mobilizational process, as part of the multiplicational process is I want to be able to move them step by step by step into the fullness of who God's called them to be.
Speaker B:See, most churches do delegation pretty well.
Speaker B:I'll give you a broom and sweep the floor.
Speaker B:I'll tell you to stack those chairs.
Speaker B:But I want to move away from delegation as my primary.
Speaker B:I want to move into development.
Speaker B:Delegation becomes a vehicle of development.
Speaker B:I can train them, I can apprentice them in the process of development, but really my goal is to develop them into the full, full expression of Jesus insofar as they can.
Speaker B:In other words, I want them to achieve the highest level of character, knowledge and skill that Jesus has for them.
Speaker B:I want every member to be growing in character and conduct in the ministry.
Speaker B:I believe that every single person is called to ministry, regardless of whether it's in the church or in the marketplace or beyond.
Speaker B:I believe that every believer is a leader.
Speaker B:The Bible says that Jesus died for us in Revelation 1, 5 and 6.
Speaker B:He died so that we would be priests and kings unto our God.
Speaker B:You're a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people, that you should show forth the praises of him who calls you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Speaker B:These are the people that God has entrusted to us as pastors.
Speaker B:And I don't believe there's any higher purpose to an existing church than to be a destiny incubator for every member.
Speaker B:Because right now most churches are mobilized at about a 20% rate.
Speaker B:Usually it's about 15 of the people do all the work of the church.
Speaker B:We need to flip that.
Speaker B:We need to actually there is an 80, 20 principle.
Speaker B:But I want the 80 to be mobilized that every member multiplied for ministry according to God's design and destiny for each person.
Speaker B:And I want the 20% to be those people who might be in the hospital little, spiritually speaking, they might be immature, they might have some character flaws that are keeping them from actually expressing themselves fully.
Speaker B:I want that to be the case.
Speaker B:We want to create a culture of mentoring and a culture of mobilization where every person is moving into their God given calling.
Speaker B:We want to move people from mentoring to mobilization to multiplying.
Speaker B:And that requires that we enlist people in service for Christ.
Speaker B:We need to get them moving.
Speaker B:And the primary movement is that they're raising up somebody else.
Speaker B:Now all of us have ministry jobs that God's called us to.
Speaker B:Some, like I said, are worship leaders, assessors, evangelists, pastors, caring for people, counseling, coaching, multiplying.
Speaker B:All those things are so important.
Speaker B:But our primary job is to raise up others into what God has raised us up into.
Speaker B:That every believer would be a disciple, every disciple would become a minister, every minister would be a multiplier.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And so you've heard the statement that we want fat people, we want to mobilize fat people, faithful, available and teachable.
Speaker B:Well, I've added an R to that.
Speaker B:We want fatter people, okay?
Speaker B:We want reproducers.
Speaker B:And John Wimber said this.
Speaker B:He said, I never hire somebody to do a job.
Speaker B:He said, I only hire those who can get other people to do a job.
Speaker B:In other words, I only hire multipliers.
Speaker B:And so this is one of the problems in the church is that we're hiring people who are skilled or gifted, but they don't know how to raise up the next generation.
Speaker B:You know, a donkey and a horse can mate, but their offspring is called a mule and mules are sterile.
Speaker B:Sadly, most of our disciple making in the modern church is producing mules.
Speaker B:We need to be producing stallions.
Speaker B:We need to produce reproducers.
Speaker B:Reproduction needs to be woven into the very fabric of your culture as a community.
Speaker B:And ultimately everyone has a mentor and everyone is a mentor.
Speaker B:In other words, every person in your church needs to ultimately be rightly related to someone, somebody or a couple of people that are helping them grow into the fullness of who Jesus created them to be.
Speaker B:And while they're growing into that beautiful expression of Christ in them, the hope of glory, that they're reaching backwards and they're raising up others in terms of salvation, in terms of discipleship, in terms of ministry development and ministry multiplication.
Speaker B:We have a six minutes for questions But I can stay on for a little longer, Glenn, if you want to.
Speaker A:So we're good, Michael?
Speaker A:We actually.
Speaker A:This is a 90 minute Zoom meeting, so we're good.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for sharing.
Speaker A:So what we'd love for you to do is if you do have questions, would you kindly just drop them in the chat and then we'll ask the question.
Speaker A:And then while you're doing that, let me just mention that book that Michael referred to, which is all about the quintessential church ministries of the church.
Speaker A:Pastorscoach.com book.
Speaker A:It's a great book.
Speaker A:And it's more of a reference book, honestly.
Speaker A:It's massive.
Speaker A:It's hundreds and hundreds of pages of resources.
Speaker A:Very practical to implement because revelation without manifestation and activation often just leads us to constipation.
Speaker A:We have all this information, we've got all this stuff, but we don't know how to implement it.
Speaker A:And it's really important that we do that.
Speaker A:Part of the Kingdom Reformation community, what we're doing is we're going to be making resources available more and more for you to access, as well as these monthly zoom meetings.
Speaker A:So the resources are in the form of books, videos, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker A:If you're on our email list, we'll send out an email, tells you some of the things and update that regularly that are available as a community.
Speaker A:We recognize that there are various individuals, for example, in the zoom meeting right now, that have credible resources that they've developed, books, et cetera, and we want to make that available as well and share that.
Speaker A:I know Garth wrote a book recently and had the privilege to write an endorsement for that, all about Reformation in the church.
Speaker A:It's a great book.
Speaker A:I want to encourage everyone, when that's released to grab a copy of that as well.
Speaker A:So please, please do so and access it.
Speaker A:All right, let's go into some questions.
Speaker A:Who's got a question?
Speaker A:Contemporary churches cannot handle the harvest that's coming.
Speaker A:I believe the early Christian model is building Kingdom communities where vertical and horizontal and one another is happening.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, again, we unfortunately, because we have become so fixated on the stage and because we have become so sadly connected to the idea of celebrity Christianity, we haven't realized that our emphasis on the stage, the fact that so much of our time, energy and money goes into a Sunday morning production, that we've actually put maybe a 75, 80% emphasis on the stage, not realizing that inadvertently we are disempowering the pews.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Even the word pews indicates this Idea of spectators.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I believe that the church has to go through a major reformation.
Speaker B:And I do believe that you're correct in saying that.
Speaker B:And I do believe that we have to be very conscious about it because, like, with our boot camp, pastor's code, boot camp, we've probably worked with about 500 churches, and most of them love our stuff.
Speaker B:Most of them will buy into it, especially for the first time, first year or two.
Speaker B:But the drift, the gravitational pull back to why don't we do churches like other churches do the church?
Speaker B:And why don't.
Speaker B:Why do we ask so much out of our disciples?
Speaker B:Well, the problem is, is that, you know, there's so much pressure for pastors to play church the way that church is normally played.
Speaker B:And so, again, if we want to change, we have to discipline the change so that we're mobilizing every member for ministry or we're going to be overtaken by persecution.
Speaker B:Or I believe that revival would do that.
Speaker B:If God begins to pour out his spirit like he did in the days of the Jesus movement, which was the last major multinational revival that hit the earth about 50, 60 years ago, I believe that we will be forced to mobilize people much more quickly and more powerfully.
Speaker B:And hopefully by then the energy will be there, the skills that have been written in preparation for this will be there so we can utilize them and see harvest come in a way that we can sustain.
Speaker B:So I don't know what you think, Glenn, on that question.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:I agree 100%.
Speaker A:All right, so next question is.
Speaker A:Would love to hear a further snapshot of ideas from the section in the notes on recap, the pathway back to movement.
Speaker A:Would these be a summary of some of the key ideas Michael sees God doing in the church today?
Speaker A:That is program preservation, apostolic multiplication, Sunday centric Christianity, everyday missional living, passive attendance to active discipleship, institutional control to relational empowerment.
Speaker A:Michael, you want to unpack that a little bit more?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Do you want to?
Speaker B:I can.
Speaker B:I would also love to hear your thoughts on that one, Glenn.
Speaker B:But let me just say that, you know, my two favorite scriptures on the apostolic.
Speaker B:I mean, I have many, but the two that I spend the most time in is First Corinthians 3 and 4.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I believe that if we're to, you know, there's many aspects of what it means to be apostolic, but I believe the two primary are builder and father or father and mother.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Because I believe in women apostles.
Speaker B:But the builder dynamic is what's found when Paul is addressing the challenges of disunity in the church in Corinth.
Speaker B:And he says, says, I, as a wise master builder, have laid the foundation.
Speaker B:Let every man take heed how he builds thereon.
Speaker B:I believe the apostolic gift is uniquely designed to be able to receive the blueprint of heaven for a specific church in a specific location, or perhaps a network of churches in a network location, and to be able to actually download that blueprint from heaven and to assemble the right people, the right resources, and the right structure strategies to build that reality.
Speaker B:So I believe that's one aspect of the apostolic.
Speaker B:The other aspect is found in chapter four of First Corinthians where he says, you have many teachers, you don't have many fathers.
Speaker B:See, fathers and mothers raise up sons and daughters into full maturity.
Speaker B:And fathers and mothers are uniquely anointed to call out the destiny of their sons and daughters and to actually help them develop into.
Speaker B:Because the purpose of parenting is not to raise a child, is to raise an adult.
Speaker B:It's to raise somebody that is actually functioning in the fullness of who in their fullness of maturity and the fullness of who God's called them to be.
Speaker B:And I believe that if the apostolic is functioning correctly, it's going to produce those two dynamics.
Speaker B:We are going to build people and we are going to build organizations that will actually multiply ministers for the harvest.
Speaker B:How would you see it working?
Speaker A:No, I agree.
Speaker A:And I think the pathway back to movement, you know, versus just maintenance and trying to preserve what we have hanging on to things.
Speaker A:And understand when we go through pruning seasons and God's stripping things back.
Speaker A:The idea is ultimately to see more fruit, though, right?
Speaker A:Jesus prunes every branch that bears fruit.
Speaker A:Why that'll bear more fruit.
Speaker A:Fruit that remains.
Speaker A:So it's not just to strip his back.
Speaker A:So we're fruitless.
Speaker A:So in this whole phase of.
Speaker A:And I know we don't necessarily like the connotations of this word, but deconstruction in the sense of Jeremiah 1:10, there's a tearing down on uprooting and and so on in order to build and plant.
Speaker A:So I think we're in a season where that takes great courage.
Speaker A:Are we really willing to do this?
Speaker A:Are we willing to build on the right foundation and do things?
Speaker A:I spoke with someone recently in the UK who is very apostolic and leads a movement in the uk and they basically shifted everything and reconfigured what they were doing on the New Testament foundations to equip the saints, et cetera.
Speaker A:And out of that, they lost a lot of people and people left, walked away, because they just wanted to show up on Sunday and.
Speaker A:But to be challenged, to actually take up your cross, follow Jesus and live as a disciple, you know, which is when you really unpack that.
Speaker A:Luke 6:40, the student is not above the teacher or the disciples, not above the teacher or the rabbi, but when he's perfectly trained, which is the Greek word karatezo, which is found in the same root word, Ephesians 4:12, the equipping of the saints.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What's the outcome of that?
Speaker A:He'll be like his teacher.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So true discipleship is seeing people conform to the image and likeness of Jesus living like he did on the earth.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:And of course, there's all the unique, the nuances of that in terms of what are your gifts, what are your callings, what's your assignment, how do you fit into all this?
Speaker A:But if it's just about showing up at a gathering, and as Michael already mentioned, all the resources, the time, the money that goes into this attractional model, and I'm not opposed to it, we do a Sunday gathering ourselves, but we can't stop there.
Speaker A:Like, if we're not equipping, we're not empowering, then we're falling short of what the whole purpose of the fivefold ministry is.
Speaker A:I just wrote an article and I'm working on my doctorate dissertation right now, and it's all about the restoration of the fivefold ministry.
Speaker A:And putting it in layman's terms, the restoration is not the destination.
Speaker A:Just because we have the fivefold restored to the church.
Speaker A:No, that's not the destination.
Speaker A:The destination is to see the body of Christ equipped, raised up, so that we see the manifestation of the fullness of Jesus in the whole body, equipped and raised up, and each part doing and making its contribution.
Speaker B:So let me add to that, Glenn, there's two things I want to say.
Speaker B:One is just that we've made the mistake of making verse 11 the most important verse in Ephesians 4.
Speaker B:And it's really not.
Speaker B:See if verse 12 is not happening.
Speaker B:Verse 11 is a waste of time.
Speaker B:Do you guys understand that?
Speaker B:And so we really need to think about, you know, verse seven of chapter four, verse 12 of chapter four, and then verse 16.
Speaker B:Those are the key verses that link that whole chapter together.
Speaker B:And that's what gives meaning to verse 11.
Speaker B:Okay, that's number one.
Speaker B:Number two, what I wanted to share in addition to that is this idea.
Speaker B:I remember one time I went to speak at a church, and the guy said, well, I'd like you not to speak on Sunday morning.
Speaker B:I'd like you to just come as an observer and then we're going to have you speak on Sunday night and then Monday you'll work with our leaders.
Speaker B:I said, okay, that's fine.
Speaker B:And, and so I went to church on Sunday morning and it was a decent charismatic service.
Speaker B:And then at lunch he said, so what did you think?
Speaker B:And I said, well, the best thing I can say is that your church is perfectly designed to achieve the results you're achieving.
Speaker B:And that's true.
Speaker B:Whether it's.
Speaker B:Whether it's true in the affirmative or it's true in the negative, it's true.
Speaker B:Your ministry right now is achieving the exact results that it's designed to achieve.
Speaker B:And the good news of that is that if you want to achieve different results, you're going to have to change.
Speaker B:And that's the book I just, you know, referred you to, the one that, you know is@pastorscoach.com book will give you a clear pathway to move from a pastoral, consumer based church to an apostolic, mobilized, multiplying church.
Speaker B:That's what it's specifically.
Speaker B:The 270 pages are all about.
Speaker B:Making that journey from one expression to the other from being a traditional church model where we're talking new, but we're acting old, to a place where we're actually acting new.
Speaker B:Because we've been able to bring the church through a cultural transformation that probably will take you about two years to make if you want to do it carefully.
Speaker B:And that's what Glenn just brought up, that the church that he was referring to in the UK lost a bunch of people because they did a hard right turn.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:You don't have to.
Speaker B:You can actually do a graduated shift that will minimize the amount of loss and maximize the actual participation of every member.
Speaker B:Moving into a higher multiplicational discipleship dynamic.
Speaker A:Yeah, and see, what we're doing on the Sunshine coast is we're building a completely new expression which is focused on equipping.
Speaker A:And we're taking.
Speaker A:It'll be over a year.
Speaker A:The time we launch and go public.
Speaker A:It'll be probably 16 months that we've been doing this under the radar.
Speaker A:And we're intentionally doing that.
Speaker A:We've got people that understand it, but we're just rolling it out incrementally, not everything all at once.
Speaker A:As Michael said.
Speaker A:I think that's wisdom, so that's great.
Speaker A:A few more questions here.
Speaker A:First of all, Bob says this.
Speaker A:He says, I do not lead a local church.
Speaker A:I know he's a businessman, but I attend a church.
Speaker A:And then he says, I heartily believe in an apostolic, relational, missional church expression.
Speaker A:So much of the content the zoom is covering, the challenge is how to move into this deliberately.
Speaker A:If you're not a mature apostolic builder, but you've got a pretty decent set of blueprints from heaven.
Speaker A:Michael?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, again, moving from vision to reality, I think is one of the unique attributes of apostolic gifting.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:They're able to actually implement.
Speaker B:So they're, you know, dreamers are a dime a dozen.
Speaker B:Visionaries are a dime a dozen.
Speaker B:There's so many people who are talking the talk and they can stir up a crowd.
Speaker B:But to actually implement step by step, so you need to first of all understand vision.
Speaker B:Vision is the blueprint.
Speaker B:It's what God has shown you in the future that you're to aim toward.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And everybody has their own definition of vision and mission.
Speaker B:But I believe that vision is what you see, and that's the literal definition of vision.
Speaker B:Mission is what you do to accomplish what you see.
Speaker B:And so what I recommend is I recommend looking very clearly at the finished product of your blueprint.
Speaker B:In other words, if everything is built according to the plan, as God said to Moses, that was given to him in the wilderness, if everything is ultimately established there three years from now, five years from now, ten years from now, whenever the time frame that God's given you is, then what I encourage you to do is take that and break it into pieces and then reverse engineer it, okay, and bring it back to the moment you're in.
Speaker B:I call it reverse visioneering.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So reverse visioneering, you bring it down to this moment, and then you say, okay, if I want to be there in five years, where do I need to be in two and a half years?
Speaker B:Usually what I recommend is if you're setting your goals, and I believe in smart goals that are specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and timed.
Speaker B:And that's something we borrowed from the secular world.
Speaker B:But they're very helpful tools to use.
Speaker B:So you're setting goals, but I always recommend that if you're cutting something in half, that you're setting that half life at about a 1/3 level, because there's always an accelerated curve.
Speaker B:There's always an increase of momentum.
Speaker B:And so the first one third is going to be.
Speaker B:It's going to take you 50% of the time.
Speaker B:The second two thirds will take you the second 50%.
Speaker B:So if you're actually growing and then you can do that again, you can go in the two and a half to, to whatever, 12 months, and you can kind of bring it down to 14 months.
Speaker B:You get the idea that you're being strategic.
Speaker B:You're taking your limited resource, your limited talent, your limited attributes, and you're creating a strategic approach to the, to the multiplication of those limited resources.
Speaker B:Okay, you have a limited amount of time, you have to work within the framework, you have a limited amount of talent.
Speaker B:The people that God's brought to you, many of those people are going to be immature at some level.
Speaker B:So you're going to have to be actually resourcing them in order for them to resource the church.
Speaker B:All of these things are dynamics that you need to work on.
Speaker B:And then you need to define your model.
Speaker B:How are you going to actually begin to produce that outcome?
Speaker B:How do I actually raise people up?
Speaker B:The one thing you need to remember is that Sunday morning preaching does not make disciples.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:It's important, but it's not going to produce the transformation in the people that you're looking for.
Speaker B:So you have to supplement your Sunday morning preaching with other venues of interaction.
Speaker B:And that's why we recommend small groups where you have a leadership team and you're working with them.
Speaker B:But even a leadership team will not produce the outcome you're looking for.
Speaker B:You need to break it down to one on one.
Speaker B:See, when I realized as a successful pastor in San Francisco that my main job description was making disciples, I changed my entire calendar.
Speaker B:I went from actually putting about 75% of my time into administration and prep for Sunday morning, and then about 25% was basically focused on pastoral care.
Speaker B:I switched it and I put 50% of my hours, 20 hours a week, 25 hours a week, into people development.
Speaker B:And I was actually working with around 16 leadership appointments.
Speaker B:And I'm talking one on one.
Speaker B:I still had group gatherings, and I still had large group gatherings, but I spent the majority of my time up to 15 to 16 individual meetings with emerging leaders.
Speaker B:And I was mentoring them individually according to their God given design and destiny.
Speaker B:And I was helping them to find a place of active service.
Speaker B:So in a sense, they were purchasing my hour every two weeks that I was spending with them by serving me usually six to eight hours a week in terms of just their volunteer service, either on Sunday morning or on Wednesday nights in their home groups or by some other ministry that they were involved in.
Speaker B:Now I believe that we need to be spending as senior leaders, especially a high amount of our time, up to 50% of our time, mentoring the leaders that we need to have in place in order to accomplish the Ministry that God's called us to accomplish and that's part of the fathering dynamic.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:One of the things question here is the idea or multiplying the one is the kingdom community designed to expose us.
Speaker A:I'm assume you're meaning like this kingdom reformation step by step.
Speaker A:In other words, is there value in having a model?
Speaker A:So absolutely there's value in having a model.
Speaker A:But understand this, that it's not about replication of models, it's about extracting biblical principles.
Speaker A:And then it's kind of a life ministry hermeneutic in the sense that we're applying it to our context.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So for example, you could tell me, hey, I'm short sighted, I'm whatever, and if I were to say, okay, I've got a pair of glasses that help me with that and I hand those glasses to you and those eyeglasses and spectacles and you put them on and you go, well, they don't help me at all, right?
Speaker A:Because they weren't designed for you.
Speaker A:And so there is a blueprint and a revelation that you need to get from heaven.
Speaker A:But let me just say this, that in the context of kingdom community, what we're trying to do is not hand out a template and say do this, do this, do that and you'll be good to go.
Speaker A:What we're trying to do is to help you to lean in and to glean from the Scriptures to extract those truths as you pray and seek God for revelation and wisdom and say, what do I need to do in the context of here?
Speaker A:And so here's specific principles and values that are critical and you, you can apply them to any culture, any context.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:But a model really doesn't work in every culture and context, but biblical principles do.
Speaker A:So that's really important.
Speaker A:And so maybe it's semantics here.
Speaker A:Do we need a model?
Speaker A:Well, I guess if it's a flexible model, if it's a model that we can implement into a variety of contexts.
Speaker A:The other thing I just wanted to mention.
Speaker A:Go ahead, Michael, go ahead.
Speaker B:Well, just as we're on the model issue and please hold your thought Glenn, because I want to hear it.
Speaker B:But you know what we have come to the conclusion of in pastors coach is that the, if there is one model, it's the model of family.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And we all use the word family very freely, but actually, you know, family, you know, I'll go to a church and what are you building?
Speaker B:Oh, we're building a family.
Speaker B:How do you define family?
Speaker B:They'll usually say something like family is A safe place to belong.
Speaker B:And I'll say, yeah, if you're six months old, but if you're three years old or 13 years old, family is not just a place to belong, it's a place to become okay.
Speaker B:But most churches will say, oh, welcome to our family.
Speaker B:But you can't do family on a Sunday morning.
Speaker B:So the way we differentiate between family and Sunday morning, as we call Sunday morning your training tribal gathering, that's when you sing your tribal songs, you do your tribal dances, and you listen to your tribal chief and your tribal, you know, medicine man or whatever.
Speaker B:You know, it's your tribal gathering.
Speaker B:But you cannot raise a child in a tribe unless you have family.
Speaker B:And that's where the small group comes into play.
Speaker B:Now, again, you can do 20 different models of small group, but small group is essentially spiritual mothers and fathers raising up sons and daughters into full maturity in Christ.
Speaker B:I mean, that's really the essential biblical principle as, as Glenn was talking about.
Speaker B:And so we recommend doing family in a small group setting, whatever that is.
Speaker B:You know, again, there's a bunch of variations there.
Speaker B:Your tribal gathering is important.
Speaker B:So large group, small group dynamic, but you also need to spend time with your individual children.
Speaker B:You know, I have seven kids.
Speaker B:We did devotions every single day.
Speaker B:But if I didn't take my kids out every so often individually, they would have thought they were just part of a herd.
Speaker B:I needed to spend time with them individually, and I still do.
Speaker B:Even though they're all adults.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I still spend time with them because they still need that fathering dynamic, even though it's now different because I'm not treating them like children anymore.
Speaker B:But anyway, back to you then.
Speaker B:I want to hear your thoughts.
Speaker A:No, just a comment.
Speaker A:I think that we are in a time where we are trying to adapt.
Speaker A:There's adoption and there's adaptation.
Speaker A:So the difference between adoption is let's grab that model, that template, and just apply it into our context.
Speaker A:Now, a lot of that can work well, but there's some tweaks and some things that will need to be adjusted.
Speaker A:However, there's some things that we just honestly have to discard.
Speaker A:And obviously with the focus on.
Speaker A:On numbers, this will segue into a question all about that detoxing from that kind of model of numbers, which is really about understanding the biblical growth, discipleship, etc.
Speaker A:But some stuff we just have to discard.
Speaker A:We just have to throw it out and we have to build fresh.
Speaker A:We have to have a way to be able to assess that in the sense of, okay, what Works, what doesn't work?
Speaker A:What needs to be changed?
Speaker A:Well, I've always revert back to what Jesus said.
Speaker A:If the thing isn't bearing fruit at all, maybe it's dead and it just needs to be cut off.
Speaker A:Maybe there's a little bit of fruit there and it just needs to be pruned, it just needs to be cut back in order to bear more fruit.
Speaker A:So that's something that we've used to, to try to gauge that what we go with or not.
Speaker A:And it's prayerful, it's discernment, all of that stuff.
Speaker A:I love this quote.
Speaker A:Socrates said thousands of years ago, the secret of change is to focus all of your energy not on fighting the old, but on building the new.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And in other words, it's easier to give birth and raise a debt.
Speaker A:And that's true.
Speaker A:So it's a lot of stuff.
Speaker A:Even if it's incremental, if it's gradual, if it starts off as displacement and then eventually becomes replacement, you know, where you're just changing things slowly, incrementally.
Speaker A:Jack Kafer told me years ago, he said one of the things that he advocated is he said when you come into a new church, when you're starting as a leader, you're joining them, they're not joining you.
Speaker A:Church planning is they're joining you.
Speaker A:There's a big difference.
Speaker A:And then what happens is he said this, he said his add don't take away.
Speaker A:So unless it's so toxic it has to be dealt with or God gives you the opportunity to shut it down.
Speaker A:So add the new things begin to change things, and that's helpful.
Speaker A:So here's a question, Michael.
Speaker A:How do we detox from some of the unhealthy focus and numbers that has infiltrated the evangelical church, particularly in the stage model, while still understanding the value of biblical growth and multiplication?
Speaker A:How are these two realities held in together?
Speaker A:Attention.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I think the first place I would go with that, and this goes back to a Wimber ism, John Wimber.
Speaker B:Although he never used the word culture, he defined culture very well and in a pyramid that he had that began with values, priorities and practices and then programs.
Speaker B:The problem is we become fixated with programs, especially in the seeker sensitive church at large.
Speaker B:But still the charismatic church has the same problem.
Speaker B:So we get focused on outcomes such as numbers, such as butts in the seat and bucks in the bank.
Speaker B:We get focused on outcomes, but a lot of times we do so in a way that we forget the why, and the why goes back down the pyramid to values.
Speaker B:What do we truly value?
Speaker B:Because ultimately, our values will dictate our priorities and our priorities will dictate our practices.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And there's a lot to be said about that, but I want to just focus on values for a moment, okay?
Speaker B:I don't know how many of you have been exposed to the model of what was called G12.
Speaker B:Okay, can I see a show of hands if anybody kind of got exposed to G12?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Now, G12 was a brilliant engineering proposal of how to do church, and it was engineered to be the perfect factory church.
Speaker B:You have three kinds of churches.
Speaker B:Fantasy, factory, and family.
Speaker B:Fantasy is where you just go through the same motions every week and you never go anywhere.
Speaker B:Factory is where you actually go somewhere, but you do so on the wrong values base.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:And unfortunately, their values were all about climbing the ladder, about achieving the outcome, about being praised by your leader and so forth.
Speaker B:They were based on the wrong values.
Speaker B:And so therefore, and this is the same across the board in any church that's valuing numbers above the heart of God is that they end up producing a culture that is factory based.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:We want to move from factory to family.
Speaker B:We want to be able to say, yes, outcomes are important, but outcomes have to be based in a different set of values.
Speaker B:And values are all about the question why?
Speaker B:So if we say, okay, we want to grow in numbers, and the Lord spoke to me that we're going to have 500 people in five years, well, I want to go there.
Speaker B:I want to take those numbers seriously if God spoke them to me.
Speaker B:But I never want to forget the why.
Speaker B:It's not about my ego.
Speaker B:It's not about any outward visibility of success.
Speaker B:It's not about performance and performance pressure.
Speaker B:It's about the heart of God being satisfied that, you know, that Jesus was able to achieve the reward of his suffering.
Speaker B:And if I can keep my heart in the right values.
Speaker B:So that's where I start, is with values, okay?
Speaker B:Then I allow the values to dictate priority.
Speaker B:So I do have a priority for souls coming to Christ and babies in the house.
Speaker B:I don't want to just win people to Christ and leave them on the street corner.
Speaker B:I want them to join our church.
Speaker B:I want them to be part of the family because that's where babies belong.
Speaker B:It's in the family.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:So I want to grow numerically.
Speaker B:How do I do that?
Speaker B:Well, I make sure my values are clean, and then my priorities emerge out of my values.
Speaker B:So I have five personal priorities that are very, very important to me.
Speaker B:That emerge out of my values.
Speaker B:And one is intimacy.
Speaker B:I want to make sure I'm intimate with God and intimate with one another.
Speaker B:I have a one of integrity.
Speaker B:I want to make sure I'm the same person today that I was yesterday and the same person I'm going to be tomorrow.
Speaker B:Tomorrow.
Speaker B:I want intentionality to be one of my core values that produces my priorities, intentionality.
Speaker B:I always want to begin with the end in mind, okay?
Speaker B:And then I want interconnectedness.
Speaker B:I want interdependency as a key thing.
Speaker B:I want to see the body serving one another in synergy.
Speaker B:And then I also want to value the independence of each person.
Speaker B:Individuality.
Speaker B:I want to see each person is not just some lockstep, you know, clone of somebody else.
Speaker B:I want to see them in their true identity in Christ.
Speaker B:And so those five things dictate the way that I approach this issue of values, priorities, and so forth.
Speaker B:When I finally get up to the higher levels of programs and so forth, they basically are built on a clean foundation and not on a polluted foundation of self serving, of ego, of conceived seat and so forth, as it says in Philippians, chapter two, verses one through three.
Speaker B:So, anyway, that's my best shot at that.
Speaker B:Glenn, what do you think?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, awesome.
Speaker A:I think ultimately, you know, it all comes back to the heart, right?
Speaker A:The Bible talks about out of the heart, right?
Speaker A:Is the issues, everything.
Speaker A:So if our heart is pure and our motives are right in the sense that we are living before God in the fear of the Lord, honor the Lord, reverence him, we love what he loves, we hate what he hates, then we move from a place where that becomes quite apparent.
Speaker A:And I think humility is something that happens only as a result of knowing who he is first.
Speaker A:And then out of knowing who he is, we know who's not only whose we are, but who we are.
Speaker A:And from that place of intimacy comes identity.
Speaker A:And then we serve with integrity of heart and purity.
Speaker A:And if you really know the Lord and walk before him in that place, I'm not afraid of the difficulties, you know, just making me jaded or even success causing me to become puffed up.
Speaker A:I think I can stay humble in regards to that.
Speaker A:And David, who was very successful, we know, obviously hit a failure.
Speaker A:But ultimately the scripture still does say about him in Psalm 78 that he shepherded Israel with integrity of heart first, and then skillfulness of hand.
Speaker A:So if we have that heart and we're focusing on that, and Michael mentioned earlier about development versus just delegation and those areas of heart, hands, and head and focusing on that.
Speaker A:And that's why it's so important that we're intentional on how we raise up others and bringing them on a journey.
Speaker A:And I've been in circles even recently where, you know, large church circles and it's all about just getting people to serve.
Speaker A:And I've even had leaders say things to me.
Speaker A:Well, just, just get them on a team and then get them to lead a team.
Speaker A:And that was their definition of discipleship.
Speaker A:It was all about delegation, as you mentioned.
Speaker B:Let me just say about that.
Speaker B:I never had my children to have them do my dishes.
Speaker B:However, if I don't have them do my dishes, they'll never grow into full adulthood.
Speaker B:That's the priority of development over delegation.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I had my children so that I could raise up a generation that goes farther than I could ever hope to go myself.
Speaker B:And that takes development.
Speaker B:And development has to be a priority above delegation.
Speaker B:Although delegation will always serve development if it's done correctly.
Speaker B:All right, back to you, Glenn.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's true.
Speaker A:Like in that is obviously there's the aspect of relationship and there's also responsibility.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:You want to raise up responsible adults.
Speaker A:As you said earlier, Michael, it's not just about fathers aren't just to raise children, is to see children become adults.
Speaker A:And that's a critical thing.
Speaker A:And as we live, to see others empowered.
Speaker A:And one of the things that we say openly and some people, are you really sincere?
Speaker A:Do you mean this?
Speaker A:And we say this.
Speaker A:We said we're not here for you to come under our vision or leadership.
Speaker A:What we are doing is we're here to see the vision and mission of Jesus Christ fulfilled.
Speaker A:And his vision and mission involves that you are in family.
Speaker A:It involves that you have those who are mentoring you and pouring into you.
Speaker A:But it also means that those who are fathers and mothers, leaders, whatever language you employ, are intentionally seeing you developed so that you fulfill your calling and your purpose and the gifts that God has for you activated in your life, come under it and contribute.
Speaker A:And there's a grand scheme that is critical, but it's his vision and it's his mission, which is always kingdom.
Speaker A:So, Michael, closing thoughts and any recommended resources.
Speaker A:Church as a Family is one book we recommend.
Speaker A:How do people get ahold of that?
Speaker A:You've already mentioned it's on the website.
Speaker B:And if they can't find it, they can just email me and I can send it out.
Speaker B:But most of it's included in the larger book that we're making the PDF available for the price of a cup of coffee.
Speaker B:If you go to Amazon, the actual hard copy's about 30 bucks, but the PDF is easy to get and it's easy to process.
Speaker B:Okay, so anyway, all those resources are great.
Speaker B:Check out destiny finder.com you know there's probably two or three hundred churches that are using it at some level right now.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:And so anyway, we have a bunch of resources.
Speaker B:You can also go to michaelbrodeur.com and check that out as well.
Speaker B:And that gives you a little bit more window into who I am.
Speaker B:But ultimately I just want to see each one of you prosper.
Speaker B:I want to see your impact, for Jesus sake be increasing and increasing.
Speaker B:I want to see you avoid every pitfall, every stumbling block, every challenge that might disqualify you.
Speaker B:And I want to see you grow into the fullness of who Jesus called you to be so that you can bring ultimate glory to his name and ultimately fruitfulness to his kingdom.
Speaker B:So I just want to bless each one of you and I look forward to connecting with you sometime in the future.
Speaker A:Hey everyone, Glenn Blakeney here.
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