Unveiling the Catalyst: What Truly Ignites Movements in Faith

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Sir, the possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1. Never tell me the odds.

Speaker B: 00:00:08

I'm Pete Mitchell, he's Peyton Jones, and this is the Church Planner podcast. Hey, church planner. Welcome back to the Church Planner podcast. Peyton Jones here I am writing solo today because Pete couldn't make it.

Don't know why. It's certainly not our guest. Pete likes everybody.

But my guest today is someone I think you're gonna like, which is Emmanuel Prince, who has written a book that I love the title of, what Actually Starts Movements. We hear a lot of talk about movements. It's kind of the legendary whisper in hush circles. There's movements in this part of the world.

But answering that question, what actually starts movements? Is to me one of the most important questions we can ask.

So I want to thank on behalf of you and Church Planner podcast Emmanuel Prince for being here today talking to us about his book. He is a missiologist and educator who has conducted the broadest ever research on movements. Emmanuel, it's a pleasure to have you today.

Speaker A: 00:01:30

Well, that is a great welcome, Patience, thank you for that and thank you for having me. I've seen your books over the years and so a great pleasure getting to know you today.

Speaker B: 00:01:42

Well, thank you for that, Emmanuel. First question I have to ask is if Pete were here. Pete always asks a question and I always skip it. Our listeners know this. I always forget.

But since Pete isn't here to kind of put the hook out and pull me back in, I have to ask it on behalf of Pete. How did you come to faith in Christ?

Speaker A: 00:02:05

Yeah, I'm happy to tell you that, Pete. I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home and the church that my parents attended was almost cult like.

So to give you an idea, Pete and Peyton, every Sunday the sermon was either from the book of Revelation or from the prophet of Daniel. And it was all about, you know, we are the faithful remnant and the world goes to hell.

And let's just make sure we don't, you know, get deceived either.

From that, at some point I started reading the Bible and I quickly realized that the kind of discipleship the New Testament describes is different than what these guys live here. At the same time my child faith was challenged. I went to what we call a grammar school.

So I basically majored on biology and had to wrestle with evolution. And then most of my classmates were either agnostics or straight out atheists. And so they challenged my face.

And my conversion was initially an intellectual conversion. Believe it or not.

So, you know, I did wrestle with the evidence and came to the conclusion that a universe without a creator, without at the very least some intelligent design is not thinkable. And then from that I concluded, if there is a God, then it must be the God of the Bible.

You know, if I compare who God is in the different religions and came across enough evidence for the credibility for the faithfulness of scripture that said, yes, I can put my trust in this book. And then there was really the factor of resurrection, that is, I believe, the game changer, Christ, there must have been a resurrection.

And if that is true, obviously that is the pointer that, yeah, we have a living faith and a hope.

So I made a radical conversion, basically starting to read the Bible for myself, wanting to go beyond what I experienced at church, quote and unquote, and decided to do everything Jesus said in the Gospels and what else I found in the New Testament.

Speaker B: 00:04:32

That's really good.

Well, before we started recording here, you were telling me, and I'm really interested in a lot of your story here, but you had mentioned that you had been a missionary in Sudan, which that's no easy mission field. I mean, that's a rough place.

Tell us a little bit about your experience in ministry, because I want my audience to know you're not just some guy like, you know, writing books over, you know, you're knee deep, you know, in mission and I mean Sudan. That impressed me when I heard that.

Speaker A: 00:05:07

Well, that is part of my really early days in walking in my new faith.

estament, and I stumbled upon: 24:14

And I thought this is not a coincidence that Jesus emphasized this all twice. And so as a naive young Christian, I was 18 at the time, or 19.

I concluded if Jesus really means what he says here, then yes, we need to continue making disciples among the people groups that have disciples, but really it needs to be the priority number one of the church to go and make disciples among peoples that have zero disciples. So that is what took me. Sudan. Not because it was such an attractive country, because at the time it had about 35 totally unengaged people groups.

In other words, no Jesus follower, no outreach, nothing. Yes, well, can I say the most challenging years of my life? No, but in some regards, I mean, everything was part of the mix.

ng in the civil war. That was: 2003

The Civil War, ethnic cleansing in Darfur. You may have faint memories of that. So we had the town under siege, Our team attacked. I had two team members shot.

We had cars hijacked, we had our clinics looted, we had cholera outbreaks. I mean, you name was really. One team member said from Texas. You know, in Sudan, you never have a boring day.

Speaker B: 00:07:15

Wow.

Speaker A: 00:07:16

But, you know, it really, the challenges brought us. Me literally to my knees. And sometimes in the middle of the day, I knelt down in my office and said, lord, how can I make it till tonight? Honestly?

Speaker B: 00:07:30

Wow. That to me, I mean, you know, when Jesus says, hey, you're not going to lose your reward for all these things.

I mean, man, I just, you know, missionaries all day long. Man could talk to missionaries all day long.

The stories, the supernatural, the things that people experience out there on the front line where he promises his power. I mean, man, I could do a whole episode just asking you about Sudan. Maybe we'll get you back and. And hear a little more because we.

Speaker A: 00:08:01

Did see, we did see a breakthrough. We did see initially hundreds and then thousands and then ten thousands of Muslims coming into the kingdom.

Speaker B: 00:08:08

Come on.

Speaker A: 00:08:09

Amazing stories of conversions of, you know, rebel arm commanders, of village chiefs, of even imams. So the spiritual leaders and the mosque coming into the kingdom. But let's leave that maybe for another.

Speaker B: 00:08:21

Episode, you know, and that's it, because we're going to talk about your book. And again, it's called what actually Starts Movements? And you can pick this book up. We'll tell you more a little bit later how to do that.

But Manuel, you've been involved in movement work for decades now, but somewhere along the line, you got interested. What sparked your interest in studying movements so deeply? Because you've done significant research on it. And why this book?

What actually starts movements?

Speaker A: 00:08:56

That's two questions. And there's two stories to it, actually, Peyton. The first one starts where we just talked.

So we saw a movement breakthrough with large numbers of Muslims coming into the kingdom. We tried to keep it under the surface to protect the movements, but word got out. And so I was asked by others, you know, where. I mean, you know this.

Where there is success in the Christian world, there's immediate interest. Can you mentor us? And I was asked by my organization leader, can you. Can you do training based on what you learned.

And we could clearly name the factors that worked in our context and helped us to come to kingdom multiplication and to a movement. But in me, there was this reluctance to say, well, that worked in our context. I cannot presume that this is equally helpful for other contexts.

So there was this interest to say, yes, I would be excited to design this training, but I would really like to put it on a much broader basis. And that triggered my initial interest back then. So that's now 15 years ago almost when I first started seriously researching into movements.

The second story is this particular study that is underlying the book. I was bothered by a lack of clarity in the community of practitioner when it comes to starting movements.

So, you know, we had pretty good clarity on what the elements of movements are.

son's seminal research in the: 2004

But what I found is that practitioners say, well, this is a great ideal, but we're kind of miles away from it. We need more help to get to this point.

And so no one had undertaken systematic research to find out not what are the 10 elements of movements, but what are the factors that start movement and contribute to movements. And that I decided to. Yeah, together with a research team. Not just. I'm by myself to tackle this.

Speaker B: 00:11:28

I have so many questions I want to jump into, but they. It'd be jumping the gun too, too soon in this interview. But I love the fact that you started with practitioning, then went to training like in the.

And then research and writing a book. That is exactly the trajectory that I have followed as a writer. And I think, Emmanuel, it just makes your work different.

You know, you're not a theorist sitting in the ivory tower writing about things other people do or did. And I love that. I just. Man, I was excited about this interview today. But okay, in the book, let's kind of peel back the later.

As Pete says, let's get down to the nitty gritty here. You make a strong case that movements don't begin with methods, but they begin with a certain kind of person. And I'm really. I'm so intrigued by that.

I know you're right, but can you unpack it for us a little bit?

Speaker A: 00:12:30

Yeah, yeah. So we interviewed 147 different movement catalysts.

So the primary catalyst who started movements that went at least to the fourth generation or beyond, with more than 100 churches started.

So these were the people who then in our interview evaluated and looked back and tried to identify what were the factors that got us to the point that we are. So this was at the time 15% of all known movements. So a very representative sample.

And as you said in introduction, the broadest research on movements to date. So what we found is that effective catalysts used at least 19 different methods, 19 different, you know, movement brands.

You know, some would say we're DMM or we are CPM or we are four fields, but many would say really we use a little bit of dmm, but we also integrated that approach. So it was a hybrid. So 19 different methods.

But what we found, and we're surprised as researchers by the clarity of this, is that all these catalysts had a certain set of traits and competencies in common. So what this means is movements are started by a variety of different methods. But wherever you see a movement, you will find a catalyst.

A man or woman of God who exhibits certain traits and competencies, in other words, lives these consistently. And that was. Yeah, I mean we had a hunch that we might find this, but the clarity that.

So it's a total of 21 catalytic qualities, we call them now that is shared by all effective catalysts. And the level of agreement actually surprised us.

So what this means is, simply put, it is the right person with the right method, but it's the right person first. So a catalytic leader, whatever you call it, a pioneer church planter, a well developed the right method for their particular ministry context.

So a leader with traits.

And I'm listing now some of the traits that we identified as hunger for God, listening to God, radical learning, innovation, who then also possesses the necessary social influence competencies. You know, I name some influencing others beliefs, empowering and similar competencies.

He will then be able to both discern, develop the right strategy and then mobilize, rally a team and then implement this strategy.

But a person who is just handed the seven steps to a certain methodology packaged, but lacks these traits and competencies that, that the book writes about, will ultimately not be capable of applying this method effectively. So I compare this patent to give a simple image with a skipper of a sailing boat. I don't know where you live, if you have lakes or.

Speaker B: 00:16:19

So I'm in San Diego.

Speaker A: 00:16:21

Oh, here you go.

Speaker B: 00:16:22

By the beach.

Speaker A: 00:16:23

West coast, Pacific coots. Yeah. So when I say sailing boat, I don't mean a dinghy like on a tiny lake, but more America's cup type sailing boat. Yeah.

So you cannot win the America's cup with a seven step methodology. Right. What it takes is a certain personality, the captain. Right. The sailor who has certain traits and a set of competencies.

It's someone who is courageous, you know, someone who is a quick decision maker, who is very alert, mentally sharp and then is someone who has sailing skills, obviously you can read the wind and know how to set the sails and is also someone who has social competencies. He knows how to lead a crew and makes sure that everyone does their job.

So they develop before a race a strategy, how to win the race and then they're able to adjust as the race goes on. And the same is true for a church planting movement catalyst.

It does take that personality and that set of competencies and not just a seven step guide.

Speaker B: 00:17:38

Yeah. Wow. Well, that is really cool. And you know, you mentioned three standing out.

The most strongly correlated with movement breakthrough, which is deep prayer, influencing others beliefs and assertiveness. Why? Why are those three so critical?

Speaker A: 00:17:59

We identified the threes not, you know, through reasoning saying what might be reasons that three might be more important than others, but through systematic statistical analysis. And not everyone is research inclined. But there's something that's called correlation. Yeah.

So correlation is a connection or relationship between two or more facts. Where you see one phenomenon, you will find the other and one influences the other. One may even cause the other, but not necessarily so.

Where you find a movement, I said earlier, you will find a catalyst with certain traits and competencies.

And the statistical analysis just highlighted these three qualities more strongly than the others of the catalyst as demonstrating a clear correlation between phenomenon A. You see deep prayer in the catalyst and influencing others beliefs and assertiveness. And the second factor, movement outcomes.

So still I guess you're interested in why to understand why they are significant. Well, deep prayer to explain briefly, I love how David Garrison frames a church planting movement as a he says divine, human, cooperative.

And that's what I wanted to capture in the book subtitle Partnering with God for Kingdom Multiplication. So it is basically what Jesus says, I do what I see the Father do. Just this close intimate collaboration with God.

I do know what he has me do or us as a team and as ministry. So that is identified through deep prayer.

You know, it is first of all the hunger for God, loving God deeply and pursuing God himself for who he is, not just as the grantor of ministry blessings. And so that explains deep prayer influencing.

Speaker B: 00:20:09

Can I stop you real quick?

Speaker A: 00:20:11

Sure.

Speaker B: 00:20:11

Right there is so good Emmanuel for who he is. And I think I can remember being in a Stage of ministry where I was encountering things that were a lot bigger than I was. Things like exorcisms were.

You know, I felt a bit like the 12, you know, Lord, why could we not cast this one out? And so I started seeking the Lord intensely.

I actually read Ian Bounds 6 volumes cover to cover, and none of it helped me because what I was actually seeking was greater power in ministry. So I love that you made the not. Not the dispenser ministry blessings.

And I struggled to pray, ironically, after trying to give myself to prayer and really study prayer and learn about prayer, because it wasn't to get more of Jesus. It was to get more power. It had put me one step away from Simon the Sorcerer. I didn't try to buy it, but I was definitely trying to earn it.

And that whole thing that Jesus said about you must abide in me if you would bear much fruit. It is so connected to his person. If we could just get that. That it's Jesus. It's him. It's. It's. It's the living God. It's not. It's. It's not.

I just love the way you phrase that, so I got a little excited. But I did not mean to cut you off. But you were mentioning influencing others beliefs.

Speaker A: 00:21:46

No, it's good that you highlight it because it's so critical. Right. And I feel so many ministry leaders are in that mode of doing business with God.

And not that this is wrong, but if God becomes secondary and our ministry fruit becomes our primary pursuit, then clearly we have an idol in our lives. Right. It's not nothing less than that. So that's what it was.

Speaker B: 00:22:14

Yeah.

Speaker A: 00:22:14

And as. As you confessed, you know, I've been there too, obviously. And it's never like I have now mastered this.

I continually need to align my heart and make sure that my heart is directed in the right way.

And until today, Peyton, one thing I do monitor, and to me that is a safe indicator, is paying attention to what is the first thought that I'm having when I wake up? Is it my to do list for the day? Is it, oh, I'm meeting with Peyton and I still need to prepare that Right? Or is it, oh, father, you're here.

I love you, you know, oh, this is the day that you have made. I want to live it with you. I want to walk closely with you today. Which is it? Which of the two. And that I found is to me the safest indicator to know.

Is my heart in the right spot?

Speaker B: 00:23:11

Well, it's not a, you know, like when you're spelling it out, it makes sense.

Of course the Lord is going to move through a person like that who's consumed by him, who loves him, who's, who's just like, how does he not work through people where he's their own all? I mean, that's Paul through church history, people that just get consumed with Jesus, consumed with God's presence.

And that's like the fire in the thatch. That's the Pentecost claim, that it's going to spread like fire, you know. But you were saying influencing others beliefs.

I'm really interested in this.

Speaker A: 00:23:52

Yeah, we've heard this before. Like leadership guru John Maxwell says, basically leadership is influence, right? And starting a church planting movement is influence.

So it should not surprise us that influencing others beliefs is absolutely essential as an ability of effective catalyst. And what this means is a catalyst talk often about their most important values and beliefs.

This is very simple, but they're consistent in that, you know, they talk about their core values and beliefs all the time until they themselves are tired of it. But with that they're shaping a culture, they're shaping a spiritual DNA. The second aspect is considering the consequences of decisions with people.

And then third, emphasizing the importance of living toward a purpose. So what does it mean? It means this is not monologuing, but it's often the art of asking questions and thinking through.

And you've seen this from me, to ask the question what is most essential now? I mean, if someone is open to thinking that through deeply, that automatically brings about some change, doesn't it?

So it is a key quality to be able to influence others beliefs. And the third one is assertiveness, which is basically again the motivation to influence people and situations.

But there is something about assertiveness and that's this. It's even to the extent, at times even of dominating.

It means sharing one's beliefs and convictions clearly so that people take notice and being bold and courageous even when facing opposition. So pursuing a big vision is never plain sailing, right? I mean, any vision that can be a church planting movement, vision or other.

And I use the analogy of sailing, again, there will be opposition, there will be conflicts on the team and there will be distractions, right? I mean, all the time probably, yeah.

So being assertive is again like a sailor holding the steering wheel of the sailing boat and holding the steering wheels because I don't know the coast of San Diego, but even in the Mediterranean, so probably in the Pacific Ocean even more, there are sometimes strong winds or there are currents, right? And the Sailor needs to steer against these and stay on course of whatever the intended destination is.

And continue to ask the question, does this bring us closer to vision? If not, we need to cut it. What is it that brings us closer to vision?

So that's what's meant with assertiveness when the stakes are high, to make sure that the catalyst himself and the whole ministry holds steady and stays on course.

Speaker B: 00:27:07

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To keep dwelling on this, this one question, but, you know, as I look at that deep prayer, influencing other beliefs and assertiveness. My favorite movement maker in church history, I confess, is John Wesley.

Speaker A: 00:28:12

Yeah, mine too.

Speaker B: 00:28:14

Awesome. Yeah, I mean, he has all three of those, you know, in spades. I mean, deep prayer, you know, his statement that when I pray, coincidences happen.

When I don't, they don't. Influencing others beliefs. I mean, the guy was just such a. I mean, influencing the theology and praxis. And then lastly, that assertiveness.

I mean, the guy was so incredibly bold and assertive. So I just love that. I see that. I, you know, those are, those are keys in him, I think.

So one of the biggest takeaways is that from the book is that not all church planters are catalytic leaders and that. That's okay.

So how does someone discern whether they themselves are called to be a catalyst or a team player or just, you know, I don't mean it like that just. But. Or a movement supporter.

Speaker A: 00:29:14

Yep. Yep. Yeah. I'm asked this question very often, Peyton, so often that I decided recently to write a blog post on it. I'll point to it.

You find it on my website, catalyticleadership.info and it will be turned into an article with EMQ Evangelical Missions Quarterly and come out in the July issue. So more Details in that if you want to check it out. Basically, there are three ways to contribute to starting a movement.

First, as the primary catalyst. Second, to join a catalytic team that is led by a primary catalyst or.

Or third, as a movement servant, I would encourage everyone to take the catalyst self assessment that I have developed. So based on the findings of the research, the 21 catalytic qualities, I've developed a self assessment that everyone can take.

You will find that on my website, catalyticleadership.info as well. And then there is no clear cut answer. It is really a matter of prayer and guidance.

But I think a self assessment gives everyone the idea to say, oh, you know, overall, my catalytic qualities are developed at a significant level. If they're already, you know, developed this significantly at this stage in my ministry, more is possible. If I keep developing this. Yes.

Maybe I can become a primary catalyst. I want to rebut slightly, Peyton, one aspect of what you said, and you said not all church planters are catalytic leaders.

Now, not all church planters will start a church planting movement, if that's what you mean. Yes, I agree.

Speaker B: 00:31:10

Yes.

Speaker A: 00:31:12

And it does sound above and beyond so many, like, oh, these 21 qualities, I may never become something anywhere near that. But all church planters can become an increasingly catalytic leader. And you see, I insert the process element of this.

And I find it helpful at this point actually to transcend the binary. Yes. No catalyst or not catalyst, and rather use a spectrum.

So I would encourage every church planter and every leader to think, you and I, we can become leaders who multiply disciples and then groups ever better. We can keep growing in this. We can keep becoming better this. In other words, we can become an ever more catalytic leader if we keep developing it.

And that, I believe, is in the realm of every church planter.

Speaker B: 00:32:23

That's really good. I love it. Well, a lot of our listeners are, you know, they're busy, right. They're tent makers.

They're doing a bunch of stuff as they're doing kingdom work. And you write about busyness as a movement blocker.

Can you kind of say a little bit more about how we structure our lives that either enables or inhibits movement?

Speaker A: 00:32:44

Yeah. So first, Peyton, I totally sympathize with the challenge because I earn my own money too. I'm not a missionary on support.

I earn some of it through contracts with ministries and denominations, but I earn some of it in the marketplace. So, yes, this can be a challenge. Now, the issue of busyness runs deeper than structuring one's life.

So first, let Me clarify what I mean with business. I don't mean working hard. I mean doing too many things to be engaged in frantic activities that causes us to rush our work.

And when we do this, when we're busy like this, we lose the ability to be fully present to a person, like in this conversation or with a seeker or with a team member. We begin to skim through activities and we neglect or avoid what is most essential. We may, you know, fail to address what is critical to address.

We may avoid a crucial conversation to be had. And we certainly will not go deep in evaluating regularly. Now, the root issues of busyness are deeper than just behavior. They are a cluttered mind.

And that means my mind is distracted. It goes in five different directions.

@ any point in this meeting, I'm already thinking about the next task that I have to carry out by tonight or something because the mind is just not focused. It is cluttered. And if we look even one level deeper in ourself, underneath a cluttered mind is a disordered heart.

And here we go back to what we said earlier, right? If a heart is disordered that doesn't have God as the North Star to say, pursuing God is my focus number one in life.

And out of this pursuit of God, God shows me things to focus on. And then I live life with clarity and with focus and a single mindedness. And that comes out of an ordered heart, a heart that is centered on God.

So in other words, more than structure, I think that the key focus is to move from a disordered to an ordered heart, a heart that pursues God above all, and to move from a cluttered mind to a focused mind. And I use myself in life the image of a domino.

So every time I plan my next workday, I have there, I have a file for this prepared to say, what is my one domino? And you know, the image of the domino is once that domino falls, it sets other things in motion. So what's my one domino? That's how I frame it.

What's the most essential thing for me to tackle on this particular day? And if I've tackled that and done that well, the day has been a success, even though 19 other things may have remained undone.

So that I think is more helpful maybe than just the structure to say, I want to make sure my heart is ordered and my mind is focused. And then things become clear, even in the context of bi vocational ministry. Maybe one last thing. And that is again, it's an ongoing challenge.

We said it. The pursuit of less but better. I don't Know, the older I become, I guess I can say, the more wisdom I gain.

But I find I used to do so many things, to run so many projects simultaneously, many balls at once. And I want to more and more just pursue fewer things, but do them better, do them with quality and with depth.

Speaker B: 00:36:59

That is autobiographical for me as well. I kind of prided myself on that in my younger days.

Speaker A: 00:37:07

Yeah, multitasking, huh?

Speaker B: 00:37:09

Yeah. And, you know, this is what I'm realizing, I get older, is you can shoot out six different directions, but you're not going to go forward.

It's not going to take you anywhere because you're going 5ft in this direction, 10ft in that direction, you're just coming back, you're crossing the same ground over and over. And I'm wanting to be focused in that one direction. And like you said, do one or two things really well. And I was not wired that way for many years.

And I think like you, I'm getting rewired a little bit and it's, it's good. But you also talk about confidence in local disciples as a trait that catalytic leaders share. This is one of my favorite topics.

Just got off a book about this whole thing. But why is that so essential and so hard to practice?

Speaker A: 00:38:08

It is hard and it's not saying that. It comes easy to me. I think for a good reason. And that is that we're created by God to love, to create, right? We love to create and build things.

That's part of our being in the image of God. So we do create things and build things, but we do it ourselves.

And what we need as leaders who become catalytic leaders, to cultivate next to that love to create, which is a good love, is a second love that becomes stronger. And that is the love to see others grow and spread their wings.

So rather than enjoying the product of my own hands, to begin to enjoy the products of the hands of others that I have contributed to empowering and enabling to spread their wings. That's one hindrance I find.

The second I find is that many of us are often short sighted and we focus on efficiency rather than long term effectiveness. So what I mean is, you and I, we're highly skilled in many areas. So if I tackle something, I know I can do it at 95% quality, it will be good, right?

If I empower someone else, delegate it, equip them to do it, probably initially they can do it only at 70%. What is better, 70% or 95%? Of course 95% is better. So I do it Myself. Now, this is efficient short term, but again, it's short sighted long term.

That means, well, if I do the project today, I will have to do it again when it comes around the corner next time. Right?

Speaker B: 00:40:05

Right.

Speaker A: 00:40:06

Had I delegated and equipped someone to do it at a 70% next level, the same issue comes around the corner the second time.

That individual would have also grown their skills and do it maybe, okay, the first time only 70%, but the second time at an 80% and the third time at a 90%. So that means I have robbed myself, my ministry, and that other person of this growth opportunity. I think that is the challenge.

And since again, too many in ministry are driven by the urgent, well, I better get it done. So I think these are the two main hindrances that we have to become aware first of all and then find ways to overcome.

And that means we have to become really super intentional in this. When I first learned this, I decided to put a sign on my desk because I would so easily fall back into the old pattern. Right. Of doing it myself.

And that sign read the following. My job is not to expedite work, but to equip others as we work together. So I put this in front of me next to my computer screen.

It was there all day long.

And whenever the next team member came into my office or the next thing happened, there was the reminder, Emmanuel, your job is not to expedite work, but to equip others. So we have to become super intentional about it.

Speaker B: 00:41:42

Hmm, I love it. So out of the 147 movements that you've studied, what's one story that still stuns you when you think about how God has worked in movements?

Speaker A: 00:41:56

Well, difficult to choose. And I share a few in the book. Maybe one I share because it illustrates the importance of our heart in this so well.

So this story of a catalyst, he's from North America and has worked in South Asia. And so for a year and a half, he said that they saw virtually zero fruit, zero progress, no seeker, no person of peace, nothing.

And then he had a moment of conviction where he sought the Lord in this. And he felt convicted that he had made ministry an idol. And he had wanted really in this largely to seek his own glory rather than the Lord's glory.

So he confessed his sin and confessed this idol. And then he says the following. I mean, it sounds like too good to be true, but that's his story.

he says, I'm quoting here. In: 2020

Then in 21, it was over 6,000 house churches a year. In 23, over 17,000 house churches planted a year. And he says, we didn't find some secret formula. We just did what we saw Jesus do.

Speaker B: 00:43:47

Come on, let's go. Yep.

Speaker A: 00:43:54

If I didn't believe in the credibility of the story, you know, Peyton, I thought this is made up. Someone wants to illustrate the point. And I mean, this can't happen. But no, I know the person, and it's an absolutely credible story.

Speaker B: 00:44:08

You know, I just love that all we did was what Jesus did. We need to return to that in a big way. The book that I just finished is called Discipology.

Takes apart what Jesus did, goes through it chronologically. How did he develop others? How did he. How did he make disciples? How can we do that today?

And I just, you know, we've been training in it, you know, and before I wrote the book, we've trained in it for a couple years now. We're going on year three in the fall. And people were just amazed. Like, this has changed my life. You know, I've never. I have no idea.

The listeners can't. Can't see it, but my camera's going crazy right now.

Speaker A: 00:44:52

Is that a new book? You have just written it.

Speaker B: 00:44:55

It will be out in March.

Speaker A: 00:44:56

Oh, I will be among your most arduous students.

Speaker B: 00:45:02

Oh, thank you, brother. I listen, I mean, you know, I'm. I'm. I'm gonna probably be putting what actually starts movements into it, you know, some of your research.

Because, you know, I hadn't. I hadn't had a hold of your resource when I. When I wrote the first draft. But the reality is. Here goes my train.

The reality is that, yeah, I mean, it is just going back to what Jesus did in the way that he did it. And like you said, you know, that abiding in him, like he spins John 14, 15, 16, and then there's John 17.

You know, those are all about that abiding in him. And I just. There's kind of been that theme today. But I just love that even with that story you just shared, that's. That gentleman's.

So look, listeners, real quick, my guest again is Emmanuel Prince. The book is what actually starts movement. Going to tell you how to get that in a minute. But I just wonder if while you're Here you're listening.

If it might be good not to let the moment pass by, to actually stop and repent, to really let the Lord search your heart and your soul, because I'm doing that right now. And, man, I've had that tug of war with God. Not one time there's been breakings. I've definitely had times where I quote, unquote, quit ministry.

Told God, I'm not going to make stuff happen anymore. You, God, this is yours. Anyways, I don't want anything from it.

I just think, guys, listening to this, please pay attention and please consider just if you're driving, maybe pulling over for a minute or stopping the podcast for a minute and talking to God or whatever it is, don't let that moment pass by, because I think that story is somewhat prophetic for all of us. God will not share his glory, he says, with anyone. So.

But before we wrap up, I want to just get pretty practical for a second for a listener who is wondering, how do I. Okay, obviously I'm going to buy the book. I'm going to study this. I'm going to read about it. I'm going to learn.

But what's something a listener can do right now, like this week before they get the book, to lean into catalytic leadership.

Speaker A: 00:47:32

Yeah. Two simple things. I invite you to talk to God, maybe in a way you haven't before, and say, God, I want to seek you.

I want to seek you above anything else more highly than ministry fruit or my name or anything.

Speaker B: 00:47:49

Amen.

Speaker A: 00:47:50

And I want to partner closely, more closely with you. Show me how. Show me how I need to adjust my lifestyle, my habits. Show me where you want transformation in my heart.

And I trust, because he is our loving Father and he's for us and he's with us. He's not against us. He will do that.

And he will minister to you in the way that you personally and individually just needed to take the next step forward in this amazing adventure with God.

The second thing, I encourage you to take out the Catalyst self assessment again on my website, catalyticleadership.in fox and identify and get a real picture of where you stand in your leadership growth, your areas of strengths. It will be affirming you.

And also identify the minimum factors of your personal growth, because very likely they're also the minimum factor of your ministry fruitfulness. And then become intentional to develop them further. Become intentional to deliberately practice what it takes to grow them. That's what I would say.

These two things.

Speaker B: 00:49:04

Fantastic. Okay, well, guys, again, the book, what actually starts movement? My guest, Emmanuel Prince Emanuel.

I want to thank you on behalf of the podcast itself and Pete, who's not here, and our audience for coming on here. Brother, this has been really sweet. Where can people pick up the book?

Speaker A: 00:49:26

On Amazon in the US or whatever your country is? It's available in non Amazon countries. You mentioned the title of the book again. My name is Emmanuel Prince P R I N Z. You will find it.

It will come up. Yeah.

And my personal ministry website, I think I've mentioned before, www.catalytic leadership info.sorry, catalyticleadership.info and I offer two free chapters. If you check out the website and you're not ready to buy the whole book, then you can get these two chapters free of charge as a teaser.

Speaker B: 00:50:08

Okay, well, hey, one more time. Emmanuel Prince with a Z and what actually starts Movement has been the book we've been discussing. It's been an absolute pleasure.

You can connect with his work@catalyticleadership.info and guys, I want to thank you for joining us today and for listening, letting us be a part of your journey. This has been the Church Planner podcast and we're going to sign out.

Remember, if you want to reach the ones nobody's reaching, you need to go where nobody's going and do what nobody's doing.